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Post by jujube on Jul 19, 2007 15:14:48 GMT -5
I don't really blame the media because Judy welcomed them in, all the stars had to do publicity for their films, Judy knew she was living in a goldfish bowl, but I don't think Judy was ever a private person. Some stars like Garbo wanted their privacy, but Judy was an all out there girl and was friendly with everyone. She sang..that's like being naked in front of millions of ppl so I don't think it was ever an issue with her really. She liked the attention.
Maybe you are getting Judy mixed up with Princess Diana? The media were not as bad as they were to Princess Diana. I don't think Judy ever really cared what the media said, as long as it was interesting..it was Diana who manipulated the media to her own ends. Judy made fun of the media and never took them seriously..they just write what they want to. I think maybe a little but she had more important things to worrry about than what other ppl wrote about her.
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Post by moocow on Jul 20, 2007 11:12:32 GMT -5
No, I'm definitely not getting her mixed up. I don't really pay attention to what the life of Di was like. I'm just drawing up my conclusions from certain things I've heard from different sources. I know Judy didn't mind the media sometimes, but I think sometimes she was just sick of prying people, and that's why she used to lock herself in her bathrooms. But also yes, I see where you are coming from, as her actions WERE crying out for attention, like her suicide attempts, so I think she loved the fame but she felt so alone sometimes. She always said how she felt for Margaret O'Brien because she was born out of a trunk, like herself, and this, I think shows, how she wished, sometimes, that she had a normal life, but she wanted her fame as well. I think who you seem to be talking about, is the person Judy WANTED to portray to the world, a person who was bubbly and "out-there" as you say. Celebs usually have two personalities, one for the camera and the real them, if that makes sense. Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know, but that's just what I think.
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Post by jujube on Jul 20, 2007 18:25:15 GMT -5
Oh I wouldn't know I'm not a 'celeb' and I don't think Judy was one either. She always said 'If I am a legend, why am I so lonely'.
Judy was not sick of prying people that she locked herself in bathrooms. She was locking herself in bathrooms because she had a drug addiction and wanted to cry. She HATED being alone. The only reason why she died alone in the bathroom was a) from the drugs as she went to try and control her addiction and b) she'd had a fight with Mickey Deans that night, as the neighbours had heard. Any other time she would have wanted to be in her husbands arms.
Judy wasn't that schizo like Diana was with the media. I take issue that you say Judy was a 'celeb'. Judy was JUDY. She was two people in a sense she was Frances Gumm and Judy Garland, but she was mostly Judy and only ever wanted to be Judy, but she always thought her so called 'celeb' status was a joke. She never read the papers! She was way too busy to even care about her image or stuff like that.
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Post by Emer on Jul 20, 2007 18:32:30 GMT -5
Who killed Judy Garland? - This is a very interesting thread - as suggested in many of the replies - no one individual killed Judy Garland, it was a combined effort and sadly Judy was not strong enough to save herself and therefore did contribute to her own death. Some replies suggest that her father's death had a big impact on her - maybe so, some people say it was her mother's greed. The reality is that Judy Garland came from a very large and very close family in which she was adored by her parents, grandmother, aunts, uncles, cousins etc. She lived with her mother and her sisters and her grandmother in Hollywood by her own choice right up until her grandmother died in 1948 - the reality is she had a lot of guilt over stories she told about her mother that were not true and because of these unkind stories her extended family including her sisters fell-out with her and did not talk to her. A poster suggests that Judy's niece Judaliene knows the truth - unfortunately Judaleine died at age 60 several years ago although she is survived by daughters and grand children but they never knew Aunt Judy..
In the late 60s she was under tremendous stress - she was in her 40s, was millions of dollars in debt, had young children to support, her home and belongings were taken away to pay back taxes, she could fill concert halls but her salary was garnished - she had to leave America to be able to be paid - and on top of it; the one thing she could always bank on to get her through was her voice and it was no longer something she could count on. She was estranged from her family - her children and extended family, she was most likely in the early stages of menopause that even in a perfect life can be difficult for women, she was surrounded by hangers on who all wanted a part of her fame; is it any wonder she died?
It was stress, worry, guilt and the inability to count on anyone to really help her - I feel given all of this she was totally despondent with no where to turn and this increased her dependency on prescription drugs and whilst she did not intentionally kill herself her life at that time left her in no position mentally to take account of her drug intake and she simply made a fatal mistake. I believe had she survived she eventually would have set the record straight about many things including her mother, her abortions, her marriages, I personally believe that Vincent Minnelli did the most damage to Judy Garland and had a big role to play in her self-esteem issues that ultimately contributed to her long-term issues.
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Post by judydarling on Jul 20, 2007 18:34:42 GMT -5
Judy was self concious that she was fat. I think that's the thing she worried about and was insecure about, but it wasn't her biggest fear. She was quite happy to not have to worry about NOT being overweight I heard. When she was healthy she was able to maintain a good weight but it all got screwd up with the drugs the studio had her on.
If it was anything like today in America she could have sued MGM! LOL. Or the drug company. I think though in the long run Americans are the most obese people in the world. I have never seen so many fat people all striving to be stick thin. It's weird! And when you go to the US it's no surprise with the amount of food they eat - the portion sizes are huge.
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Post by jonny62 on Jul 25, 2007 13:07:43 GMT -5
The following people killed Judy, in chronological order:
Ethel Gumm Louis B. Mayer Various doctors, pharmacists, "candymen" Vincente Minelli Sid Luft a copius booze intact Fields & Begelman the I. R. S. her kids (abandoning her) Mickey Deans Mickey Deans Mickey Deans a destroyed liver herself (albeit unintentionally)
Judy was a physical wreck at the time of her death; If that last few Seconals didnt do it, one can only wonder what other shadow would have succeeded. Deans, for reasons unknown, didnt have her in a hospital addressing her health and addictions. She needed major medical attention, and that would have been his responsibility as her husband. She might have rebounded to see the 70's, and maybe even triumphed as Auntie Mame on Broadway; we'll never know.
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Post by jujube on Jul 26, 2007 5:05:18 GMT -5
jonny -you missed:
David Rose (condoning an abortion) Frank Gumm (for his indescretions) Betty Asher (for spying on her and betraying her).
It's amazing how many people failed her.
Emer- I didn't know Judy lived with her grandmother. In no bio I've read does it mention this?? Interesting. Can you explain a bit more why you feel Vincente Minelli did the most damage? I always felt he genuinely loved her the most but was passive-aggressive not to mention 20 years too old for Judy.
Another thing raised was Judy didn't know how to eat properly. I'm not sure if this is true or not..but you hear of many actresses today starving themselves to be camera thin and it appeared Judy was no exception.
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Post by moocow on Jul 26, 2007 14:59:11 GMT -5
jujube, you say that Judy didn't care about the media or what they said, well one of the reasons she thought she was fat WAS because of the media. When she was younger, the papers were always commenting on how the "chubby" Garland was doing, and not to mention what Louis B. Mayer first thought of her, always calling her the "fat" or "chubby"one compared with Deanna Durbin. This grew on her and put her down and influenced her thoughts about herself. Also if you have read Gerald Clark's biography about her this,suggests that she DID want to be alone from time to time because she was sometimes sick of prying eyes reading into things that she did and twisting them. No I'm not a "celeb" either but if you notice, the media is often going on about the lives of celebs BEHIND the cameras, because they act differently to how they act in public. This is what I'm trying to explain and the media always have done this. I understand what you are trying to say though.
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Post by jujube on Jul 26, 2007 23:06:05 GMT -5
I thought it was just Louis B mayers insistence that Judy was chubby and wanting her to be thin rather than the 'media'. The media of the 1940's was incredibly kind to Judy on her ascent to stardom and never mentioned something so indelicate as her weight. They were in it to promote her films...why would the publicity media say she was chubby?
Only later when she grew overweight were the British press unkind enough to point out that Judy had gotten fat.
Although I do remember (don't quote me) of reading of Judy trying to sue a press person for damages saying she was fat. That was in the late 50's when media wasn't controlled by the studios anymore. I don't think it influenced her rather it was Louis B mayer who forced her into dieting that did the most damage in her early years.
I very much doubt Judy wanted to be alone..I think she had a fear of abandonment. Even biographers like Geralde Clarke can get things wrong -Judy was often quoted how lonely she was. She didn't like people invading what little privacy she had but that's actually different to wanting to be alone. (which I thought you meant in your post). If she wanted to be alone she wouldn't have gone to the trouble to make any public appearances at all.
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Post by judydarling on Jul 27, 2007 16:28:25 GMT -5
Judy's life was publicised but it was a made-up life that they publicised so anything you read that was recorded in the media about her so-called private life was not actually real at all. For example Judy had her birthday parties and dates but they were put on by the studio, even her house was bought for her by the studio and publicised and decorated by the studio. Judy was photographed stamp collecting and sewing and painting the picket fence when in reality she had no time to be a home-maker.
Nobody twisted Judy's life in the sense that the media tried to destroy her, rather, the press reported on what they saw and the MGM publicity sent out made up gossip of her home life so Judy would be made palatable to her teenage fans. Judy was never a victim of paparazzi, but its true that a lot of what was written up in her publicity was a pack of lies and half truths. They glossed over her mental breakdowns while Judy herself frequently exaggerated and stretched the truth over her own life because she didn't like to talk about her parents - she did not come from a stable family.
I think BIOGRAPHERS are the ones who try to get to the bottom of what Judy was like behind the cameras, and that was different from the MEDIA or PRESS who reported what they saw, and PUBLICITY who stretch the truth in order to make good copy. You should read more biographies..preferably all of them.
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Post by Emer on Jul 27, 2007 16:43:23 GMT -5
jonny -you missed: David Rose (condoning an abortion) Frank Gumm (for his indescretions) Betty Asher (for spying on her and betraying her). It's amazing how many people failed her. Emer- I didn't know Judy lived with her grandmother. In no bio I've read does it mention this?? Interesting. Can you explain a bit more why you feel Vincente Minelli did the most damage? I always felt he genuinely loved her the most but was passive-aggressive not to mention 20 years too old for Judy. Another thing raised was Judy didn't know how to eat properly. I'm not sure if this is true or not..but you hear of many actresses today starving themselves to be camera thin and it appeared Judy was no exception.
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Post by Emer on Jul 27, 2007 17:02:18 GMT -5
Sorry about the previous post - I am not sure what I did wrong.
Judy Living with her Grandmother - I guess I should have said her Grandmother lived with her. What I meant was in later life Judy told stories about her mother that were not altogether accurate and in her family's opinion were lies but when you review her life from the time she was signed by MGM at 13 right through Liza being born she always chose to live with her Mother, Her 2 sisters, her niece and her Grandmother - albeit it was her wages that kept the family she always returned to them - after her divorce from David Rose she went back to live with her family, when things weren't right with Vincent Minnelli - she went home to live with her family. She had a very close relationship with her family and the Gerald Frank and Rita Piro biographies talk about this. She did not expect her mother to die so young (she was 60) because her Grandmother had lived to be quite old and only had died a few years before Ethel - I am sure had Ethel not died that they would have reconciled because there was a deep connection between them and Judy did feel guilty about her mother's death. What I meant about Vincent Minnelli killing her is that she put her faith in him even though she was advised that he was "strange" He was nearly as old as her mother therefore too old for a young girl in her early 20s - he was more concerned with what she was wearing or how the house was decorated and by all accounts more interested in Gene Kelly than Judy - I think this was her first real disappointment - he was weak and shallow and sold her out to keep his job at MGM (my opinion from what is written). I also think his weakness did more harm to Liza than any of Judy's tantrums - he did not give Liza a true perspective on life and did not stand by Judy during the hardest tiems at MGM - is it any wonder he did not go to her funeral - she probably would have sat up in the coffin!
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Post by rainbowgirl on Aug 2, 2007 19:22:50 GMT -5
hmm well I just want to add I think what moocow is trying to say is Judy felt she had to be perfect. I'm not sure if she was really a perfectionist cos she had so much natural talent she didn't need to be. I think she had a made -up life as far as anyone was concerned, she invented herself as she went along, and believed her own publicity. Her whole life was her work, when she was not working she'd be doing publicity or promotions or singing at parties. So she did not have a normal life and little privacy. Everything was reported to the MGM authorities.
She was best friends with her publicist Betty Asher, and later on in the 60's I think she was engaged to another publicist Tom Green. So she chose the wrong people for friends, she complained, but she invited them in. Her affairs with married men and her hangers-on suggest that she was extremely needy and never wanted to be alone even for one second. She even married Vincent Minnelli! If she wanted rest and privacy..why on earth would she marry her director?! HUGE mistake! So I think Judy lacked judgement on that score. Maybe it all comes down to the fact that Judy was one very insecure girl.
I would love to know what Vincent did to convince Judy to marry him. Apparently she couldn't stand him at first. Maybe he told her she was beautiful..according to one bio I read all it took for Judy to marry David Rose was sympathy and chocolate cake.
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Post by moocow on Aug 12, 2007 7:39:13 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining that rainbowgirl, I can never seem to explain what I mean properly. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
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Post by zimin0902W on Sept 25, 2007 3:54:44 GMT -5
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