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Post by jujube on Jun 25, 2007 1:42:15 GMT -5
Am pretty sure it was a conspiracy. She was fine up till she had the abortion, and then after they did that to her (whoever 'they' are) she was never the same. And then she got sucked into those money grubbing bad people who tried to scam her and make her take drugs.
At first I wanted to believe that Judy wanted this for herself but no, she never wanted fame nor fortune, well only a little while, and then somehow she got convinced by those greasers and lived in h-wood for too long.
Maybe there is real evil out there? It got inside Judy via drugs and alcohol..and the people who pushed them on to her???
I don't understand. I'll never understand. Judy was a good person, and she got ruined by everyone else who wanted something from her. As she said, she was a piece of pastry or meat or something. Men can make u feel like that sometimes. I can understand that. some people believe women are supposed to be like that but we arent, we're not mere decorations either.
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Post by Jayme on Jun 25, 2007 21:52:50 GMT -5
I think the ghost of her mother killed her.
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Post by jujube on Jun 26, 2007 0:36:27 GMT -5
could be.
The song 'after you've gone' is pretty spooky.
apparently Ethel G died of a heart attack in middle of a parking lot and Judy felt really guilty after she died, maybe that's what started her drinking problem, to erase that memory.
Ethel was too overprotective of Judy..but I think she was doing this to protect Judy from her father..from finding out about his paedophilia.
So horrible that the same patterns seems to repeat over and over again, but not sure why?
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Post by judydarling on Jun 27, 2007 2:25:36 GMT -5
Don't ask why. There's this old saying of 'those whom the gods love most, send mad'..I guess Judy got too powerful and people were idolising her too much. People did worship her, and she was venerated and adored, and we all know that God is a jealous god. Well, the Jewish God was (is?)...
Judy was actually Christian but she married Sid so I don't know how that works..?! But she came back to the church after Sid and was reading the new testament up until her death. However Judy isn't buried, she's encrypted in NYC. That's scary, anybody could just move her around. I think she'd be much happier if her remains were buried in a nice, peaceful cemetery with family around or trees but that's just my belief.
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Post by rainbowgirl on Jun 27, 2007 3:15:59 GMT -5
that's too sad!!!
I tht it was suicide but it appears to be much more than that. I believe Mickey is innocent tho, but still, he shouldn't have argued wif her that nite, apparently on her last few nites they were having a domestic, and she would lock herself in the bathroom and cry.
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Post by jujube on Jun 27, 2007 12:51:01 GMT -5
Mickey (or was it Lorna?) did try and cover up Judy's death tho. She didn't die in a dignified way.
I thought maybe she died of alcohol and drug withdrawal, she was exhibiting some signs of it near the end of her life, plus hallucinations.
According to the scarecrow, she just plain wore out.
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Post by Ray on Jun 28, 2007 0:02:26 GMT -5
Now bear in mind this is only a conspiracy theory but she had earlier begun working on her life story with Gerold Frank. I doubt she would have talked too much about her negative experiences. She had certainly been pals with Sinatra, Kennedy and had doubtless some vague contact with the mob. Remember, many believe that Marilyn Monroe was beginning to write about her life, including the Kennedys, Mob. etc. Maybe Marilyn really was set up. As for Judy, I think she was just worn out. Mickey should have hauled her off to a Saniturium for a good, long rest and withdrawlal. Also I read somewhere that shortly before her death she had added the "newly invented" drugs of Thorazine, which could kill a horse, and/or Elavil. She was in the habit of waking up early and taking another sleeping pill. She probably just took one too many. Many, many drug addicted people usually die from accidental overdoses. Judy only attempted suicide when she was broken up with her husbands, often just to grab attention and pity. The time she "cut her throat" in 1950 when MGM canned her, she only barely nicked herself, there were no stitches. Despite this, a vicious MGM publicist, leaving Judy's home after her "recovery" refused to make an actual comment but he did run his index finger accross his throat which says "cut her throat"...and the press took that misinformation and ran with it!!! And about Judy's mother, Judy probably didn't mind that all her early money had been invested poorly by Mama; apparently she hated that her mother would side with MGM AGAINST Judy. Do you think Ann Miller's mom did that to her daughter? Even Lela Rogers, Ginger's mom, as obnoxious as she might be never turned on her own daughter!!! Also Rita Hayworth, Betty Grable and Betty Hutton had "problem" moms but they never felt that ultimate betrayal. Maybe if Frank Gumm had lived Judy would have at least had him in her corner!!!
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Post by jujube on Jun 28, 2007 14:03:29 GMT -5
Forgive me but Frank was no use to Judy.
He led a double life and didn't protect Judy from his secret paedophilia. I despise Frank for making Judy so vulnerable.
Everybody knew about it in that town, that's why they had to keep moving. Judy didn't really know her father, but only thought good of him.
I think the truth hurt her, but better the devil she knew then the opposite.
If she had him 'in her corner' whatever that means, it would be likely to be an incestuous relationship since he adored her so much. That sort of thing happens.
He couldn't help himself.
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Post by Ray on Jun 29, 2007 0:57:46 GMT -5
First of all the rumors about Frank being even bisexual never surfaced until the mid 1980s when Marcella Rabwin (former secretary to David O. Selznick) suddenly began making various revelations about Frank Gumm being GAY...He reportedly had affairs with young men in their late teens. Even Marcella never called him a paedophile. Marcella never said anything until her husband Marc Rabwin died. Nowadays many gay men now can adopt and raise children. They do not molest their sons, much less their daughters! Also Marcella Rabwin was the one who came up with that tale that Ethel wanted to abort Judy but Marc Rabwin talked her out of it. First of all, Marcella did not even know the Gumm's until she married Mark in 1935. I read every article ever published about Judy from 1969 until the present day. The one about Frank being gay (not a padeophile) was never discussed by ANYONE prior to Marcell Rabwin, who has also been known to take credit for knowing all the dirt about many other deceased stars. Remember she was secretary to David O Selznick, who in 1935 created Selznick International Studios. Unfortunately Judy was never able to work with Selznick because she was at MGM. Over the years I have read information from many other Judy fans older and better informed than me or you. These people who live in LA uniformly concur that she is a slightly senile old blowhard who will do anything to get 3 minutes on a TCM special about Judy or any other star who is now long deceased. Would they bother interviewing Marcella if all she said was "Judy was so sweet and down to earth,.we all loved her..." No way! Writers and producers want DIRT. The reason I feel Frank may have fought the studio on Judy's behalf is because he took her to her first audition. After she sang her little heart out, LB Mayer asked Frank if Judy could sing opera. Frank told him where to go and grabbed Judy and dragged her out of the room. That alone proves he had Judy's best interests at heart. Ida Koverman smoothed Mayer's feathers and she was shortly hired. Now I'll admit that Frank probably would not have been much better with Judy's money than Ethel was. These were Working Class people who had never had much money. Also, if Frank was gay I'm sure LB Mayer would have blackmailed Frank into letting MGM run roughshod over Judy. Certainly in her mind, Frank was the real Man that Got Away. If he had lived, his image might well have lost its glitter in Judy's memories. Have you ever had a close relative who died before his or her time? Many such Dead Before their Time people are often lionized in memory by their loved ones. That's how our culture works.
Frank may have been gay or bi, who knows? You should have read some of the misinformation that came out about Judy in the first few years after her death. All these "unknown sources" were saying that Judy "swung both ways", "enjoyed a gal as much as a guy"....That Judy was really a bad Heroin addict, all kind of crap which mercifully has returned to the ash heap of half baked lies, unfounded accusations and insipid innuendos, where they belong. The story about Judy's abortion may well be true, but it never surfaced until the 1980s. It does make sense, because that was about the time she began rebelling from MGM. Although Judy's marriage to Minelli was blessed with the birth of Liza, it was unfortunately not good for Judy. Why? Because Minelli's first allegience was to MGM. Instead of marrying a protector she married a company man. No one ever wrote he was gay until after his death. It may well be true. He was certainly eccentric. But if he was gay, it doesn't mean he was molesting Liza! None of us will ever know the real truth of Judy's life until after we have passed on to the after life. There all the mysteries and misconceptions about all aspects of this earthly existence may become apparent....or maybe not...Maybe they won't matter one way or another.
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Post by Ray on Jun 29, 2007 2:53:07 GMT -5
By the way, Jujube, I do not in anyway mean to disrespect you or your opinions. Unfortunately I have spent the last 24 hours watching over my sick elderly mom and when I haven't had any sleep I get slightly long winded and downright punchy. Also my mom was born in the same year as Judy. When she dated my future father in 1939 their song was "Over the Rainbow"...Judy's version, of course. And also I would like to thank you for starting such an interesting thread. That's what's so great about this site where people who really care about Judy can have serious discussions. Probably the one living person who might possibly know the extent of Frank's perversity would be Judelin, Judy's neice living in Texas. Let's hope he wasn't molesting Judy; that would be really bad. Another early seventies published rumor about Judy said that while she was filming "Babes in Arms" Busby Berkley cornered Judy in a private room and raped her. And thus began her antaganism with him. Fortunately that was a one time rumor never proven!
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Post by jujube on Jun 29, 2007 13:37:56 GMT -5
that's alrite Ray. It's a sensitive topic, it's ok to feel a bit angry. I am a bit mad at Judy's dad for just giving up and dying when she was 12, and at Ethel for having what seemed to Judy an affair with Will Gilmore before Judy's dad died, and Louis B Mayer for feeling up Judy when she was young (he was notorious for harassing his female stars) and then Judy herself for being unaware that she was in danger..for Judy being so sweet and lovable that men twice her age would fall in love with her.
I'm not one to spread rumours these are what I feel is complete and honest and what I've read not what I have experienced myself so please don't shoot me!! I'm not the most informed person on the planet about Judy I am only a Judy fan. I don't want to read anymore negative stuff about Judy, but there is a truckload that peoplel keep saying 'oh Judy is just a legend' keep the legend but Judy would say so what! Judy would want us to talk about the truth not all the fake artificial stuff. BTW it's only in this thread so if it's uncomfortable don't read and don't post!
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Post by rainbowgirl on Jun 29, 2007 16:43:24 GMT -5
she became a vampire...
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Post by judydarling on Jun 29, 2007 16:59:05 GMT -5
Being gay does not mean you are a child molester. Two different things. Back then I think they classed homosexuality as a mental illness.
They called it being 'degenerate'. Tenessee Williams wrote a lot of plays about the subject,,most of the female characters are versions of himself. Geralde Clarke wrote Judy's bio ..he also wrote a bio on Truman Capote who was gay so I think he knew what he was talking about and did his research.
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Post by rainbowgirl on Jul 3, 2007 3:50:51 GMT -5
I swear she was a vampire! She had insomnia, so slept during the day, ate no food, had a liquid diet, and drew her energy from thousands of fans who came out at night to go and see her. Then she said 'it is lonely and cold at the top' which I take to mean when she goes home alone to rest in her coffin.
Of course, I could be making all that up.
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Post by judydarling on Jul 4, 2007 3:54:58 GMT -5
Maybe God took Judy Garland? She no doubt begged for mercy many times. She battled a lot of demons, but they were all outside influences. She was not intrinsically bipolar mad, like Vivien Leigh was. I like to believe Judy was innocent. You only have to listen to that voice to know she was innocent and had been hurt somehow. Later on, when she had become a regular drinker and smoker, Judy's voice did change, it became damaged somehow, and when she was intoxicated, it was a totally different Judy.
Judy was vulnerable to abuse and Hollywood was (and still is) like Babylon..a hotbed of vice.
Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense. I am not really with it tonight.
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